J.J. Gould: Once you have been first arrested, how a lot of a shock was it that this was occurring to you?
Jason Rezaian: There have been occasions within the 5 years once I was residing in Iran—and even within the years earlier than, once I’d go to Iran for weeks or months at a time to report from there—once I was nervous about it.
After all, I’d seen different journalists arrested. Being a foreign-national or dual-national journalist in Iran at all times appeared to result in jail—for some time; after which they’d get out after just a few weeks, or a month, or a few months. So my life in Iran was at all times a calculated danger.
However the reality is, once I was arrested, Iran was a couple of yr into the reformist authorities of Hassan Rouhani; nuclear negotiations between Iran and the U.S. and different world powers gave the impression to be going effectively; and it appeared as if the Iranian regime needed to ease tensions and get itself out from below the financial sanctions it had been topic to. In that sense, it was a shocking time to be arrested.
It was a time when extra journalists had been let again into Iran, after years when nearly nobody had. Journalists I’d recognized earlier than 2009, and hadn’t seen within the nation since, began returning; completely different information networks began returning; Anthony Bourdain even introduced his present to Iran. He interviewed me and my spouse for it. 60 Minutes got here to city. I helped them out with that—only a few weeks earlier than I used to be taken into custody.
When it occurred, it was evident that the intelligence wing of the Revolutionary Guard Corps was behind it. However what was shocking was much less the arrest itself and extra the truth it took me into.
I’d at all times understood that there was a fractured high quality to Iran’s inside political dynamics. However I’d additionally figured that the regime was finally like a faculty of fish, swimming in unison, guided by the choices of the Supreme Chief—that it was finally unified from the highest down. Because it seems, it wasn’t that straightforward. Sure, the Supreme Chief is the decider. However the actuality is, there are all kinds of teams and people below him vying for their very own agendas—identical to anyplace else.
I’m unsure folks see that very clearly from the surface. And for higher or worse, I bought to see it from the within. I bought to see that the one factor all these completely different pursuits inside the regime have in widespread—from probably the most insular to probably the most outward-looking, probably the most hardline to probably the most reform-minded—is the aim of preserving and perpetuating the Islamic Republic. That’s it. Past this, they’ve very completely different views about tips on how to obtain it.
Gould: So what pursuits ended up driving issues in your case?
Rezaian: I couldn’t actually see that initially, myself. I didn’t know what was occurring. I didn’t have a day in court docket till 10 months after my arrest. For seven weeks of that, I used to be in solitary confinement. My spouse was in solitary confinement. Neither of us had any thought the place the opposite was. They put you thru the wringer. I used to be in interrogation rooms for a lot of hours a day. They alternately instructed me that I’ll be executed imminently, or that I’ll be launched tomorrow, or that I’ll spend the remainder of my life in jail. They instructed me there’d been information reviews that I’d died in a automobile accident—so, you realize, nobody’s coming to get you. It’s all meant to confuse you, to disconnect you from actuality. And it really works.
However for those who have a look at what occurred over this complete year-and-a-half ordeal, you may see that each one of many moments once I was dragged into an Iranian court docket, or when an Iranian politician said publicly that I wanted to be executed, or when Iran’s overseas minister on the time, Javad Zarif, traveled to Europe or the U.S. and was requested about my case and gave some bullshit reply—each a kind of moments corresponded with a second in Iran’s quest to get to the nuclear deal it was negotiating. So in a method, I used to be a hostage in a really literal sense, however I used to be additionally a type of oblique leverage in these negotiations: We’ve bought an American journalist, don’t neglect.
Now, for those who heard Zarif’s responses to questions on me, you might need thought he was on my facet. However for those who appeared fastidiously, each time Zarif talked about me, he dug a barely deeper gap round me. It was a negotiating tactic. He’s performed the identical recreation many occasions with many alternative hostages—me, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, the Iranian-British twin citizen imprisoned from 2016 by means of final yr, others—and whereas the circumstances are completely different in some methods, you may see the playbook: Properly, it is a good individual however, you realize, they bought concerned in some issues they shouldn’t have gotten concerned in. I can’t provide the particulars, as a result of it’s a matter of nationwide safety, however the crime they’re accused of could be very critical—this sort of nonsense.
It turned clear to me that somebody like Zarif can say no matter he needs about being against hardline parts inside the Islamic Republic, however on the finish of the day, they’re all working collectively towards a standard aim. And he’s by no means going to be on my facet.
Gould: Why have been you launched in the long run?
Rezaian: I used to be launched in a negotiated settlement between the U.S. and Iran formalized on the day the nuclear deal was applied.
There have been a number of different Individuals detained in Iran on the identical time, a few of them for years: Amir Hekmati, a former Marine from Michigan, Saeed Abedini, a pastor from Idaho, just a few others. And we have been all ostensibly freed in trade for seven Iranians being held within the U.S. on fees of sanctions evasion.
The elephant within the room is that on the day we have been launched, $400 million in money was additionally launched to Iran. So all these completely different items have been being moved across the board directly: The U.S. was lifting sanctions on Iran in trade for Iran shutting down key components of its nuclear program; prisoners have been being launched in each international locations; and cash that had been frozen since 1980, after the Islamic Revolution, was being introduced into the equation on the final minute.
Lots of people known as {that a} ransom fee. However the cash was at all times there as a component of leverage. When the USA blocked Iran from entry to its oil revenues, the thought was by no means to take that cash eternally—or to present it to another nation. The concept was at all times to make use of the cash as a carrot in negotiations.
Now, I’m not right here to pronounce on the knowledge of that method. However after we have a look at the hostage-takings completely different governments are doing now—whether or not it’s Iran or China or Russia—every has its personal motivation. In China’s case, it appears to be extra tit for tat—Beijing retaliating for one thing. In Russia’s case, it tends to be about recuperating property—like Victor Bout, the arms seller not too long ago exchanged for the American basketball participant Brittney Griner. In Iran’s case, it’s cash.
Iran doesn’t have some huge cash. They’ve had a tough time accessing their oil revenues because the 2010s, when the Obama administration began placing sanctions on them as a type of strain to get to a nuclear deal. So long as that is a part of U.S. technique, we should always anticipate that Individuals and Brits and others who journey to Iran have targets on their backs.
This isn’t to say any of those hostage-takings are justified. It’s simply a part of the context for why they’re occurring. There are 4 Individuals being held in Iran proper now, they usually’re all coping with the identical sort of scenario. As soon as once more, there’s there’s a deal on the desk, and as soon as once more, that deal would come with unfreezing a few of Iran’s cash in third international locations.
Folks ask me on a regular basis, don’t these sorts of offers simply incentivize extra hostage-taking? My reply is not any—and that that is truly the improper query. The reply is not any, as a result of the explanation why China or Russia or Iran hold taking hostages is that there’s nothing deterring them. So the true query is, what can we do to discourage autocratic governments from pulling stunts like this within the first place? As a result of as of now, there’s actually nothing standing in the best way—nothing to make the Chinese language Communist Social gathering, or Putin’s equipment, or the intelligence companies of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard assume twice.
Gould: How do you make them assume twice?
Rezaian: It’s an especially complicated drawback, however I feel there are just a few methods at it.
One is for like-minded democratic governments to take a unified method to the issue. The U.S. State Division, below the course of Roger Carstens, the present presidential envoy for hostage affairs, is attempting to get different international locations—Canada, Australia, the U.Okay., their European and East Asian allies—to align on the concept if considered one of ours is taken, it’s the identical as if it’s considered one of yours. The concept is to behave in live performance constantly—to take all of the measures we have now individually and use them collectively.
That’s a troublesome alignment to get to. Up till now, the method has been very a lot bilateral between two international locations. Within the case of the Individuals who’re at present being held in Iran—or of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, who I discussed, and Anoosheh Ashoori, a British-Iranian businessman arrested in 2017 and likewise launched final yr—the U.S. and the U.Okay., began taking a coordinated method for the primary time. However the Iranians weren’t assembly with the Individuals, so the U.Okay. was out in entrance representing each international locations’ pursuits, and the discussions dragged on for a really very long time. At a sure level, the U.Okay. determined that it wasn’t getting traction on the American circumstances and that the political prices of those Britons being caught in jail have been getting too excessive. So once more, they made their very own deal. Within the midst of that, Morad Tahbaz, a British-born American citizen of Iranian origins, was left behind. He’s nonetheless in jail in Iran, and there are three different Individuals ready for his or her freedom with him.
Desirous about preventative measures a rustic like the USA can take, in the meantime, my speculation is the precise levers are going to vary from one hostage-taking nation to a different, as a result of they’ve to trace the motivation of the hostage-taking within the first place. So, for instance, if Iran needs cash, you need to determine tips on how to make it extra pricey than they assume they’re going to profit. If the Russians need their spies again, that’s a distinct equation.
A part of the issue there goes to some uncomfortable questions on who we give entry to our international locations. Now, staff of Russian state media, Chinese language state media, Iranian state media are all allowed to come back to the USA and report from right here as a result of U.S. coverage right here is ruled by our dedication to the liberty of expression. It’s a core worth within the U.S., and we rightly need to honor it—however these states are making the most of it, sending intelligence operatives and different state staff below the guise of being journalists.
It’s vital to grasp, the USA doesn’t do this. We have now conventions in opposition to it. So once I’m taken, or when Evan Gershkovich is taken, and we’re accused of espionage, everyone is aware of it’s a farce—together with the individuals who took us. Why? As a result of they know Individuals don’t do this. Possibly we did it in the course of the Chilly Battle. However that’s simply not a factor anymore. Once I assume again to my interrogators, I keep in mind how they knew they have been pulling a quick one and getting away with it. They knew that, as a result of the rule of regulation is so regular in a rustic just like the U.S., when folks right here learn headlines about an American being accused of one thing there, they learn it with a type of tacit assumption that there should be one thing to the cost—even when it’s not clear what that might be.
That’s why the time period hostage is so vital in these circumstances. I need to acknowledge and applaud members of the Biden administration, and the Trump administration, for utilizing it. Wrongful detention or unjust detention—phrases like these simply confuse folks.
I feel the U.S. is getting wiser and extra street-smart about these circumstances, and it’s higher that it does now fairly than later, as a result of the variety of circumstances is rising exponentially. There are 50-something of them proper now. Once I was jailed in Iran, there have been 4 or 5 of us all over the world. Different international locations weren’t doing this. Now it’s spreading like a virus.
Gould: Zarif’s playbook has turn out to be a part of the autocratic playbook?
Rezaian: It’s turn out to be a part of the autocratic playbook. So when the caseload goes from 5 to 50 to 500, what sources is the U.S. authorities going to commit? How are they going to decide on which circumstances get these sources? Who’s going to get left behind? These are all questions that folks within the halls of energy all over the world are attempting to reply proper now, as a result of they know that in the event that they don’t, the difficulty goes to get uncontrolled.
