I wrote the book (Why Bharat Matters) primarily to convince people that today foreign policy does matter to you. With each passing year, something abroad has happened which has fundamentally changed our life. The biggest thing in the last five years has been Covid. Now, it’s not just Covid. There have been conflicts in the world before, but if you look at the conflict in Ukraine today, or you look at what’s happening in Gaza and the Red Sea, it’s actually affecting bread-and-butter issues in this country.
We have about 1.2 million students studying abroad at any given time. So the moment there is conflict, the first question we ask ourselves is, okay, how many of our people are out there. Look at the last few years, we had Operation Ganga in Ukraine, Operation Kaveri in Sudan.
Now, why did I write the book? When I looked at 10 years of the Modi government, I asked myself where were we in 2014 and where are we in 2024? I thought somebody needs to tell this story. Finally, I decided, okay, I’m probably the best guy to do it.
On the decade of transformation
If you are to have big change, you need that vision. You need that sense of I am here, I’m going to go there. The second is that if we are 1.4 billion people, the biggest resource is people, and we are preparing for a globalised world. Why am I not leveraging people? Why is it that there are restrictions on mobility? People say we must have access to capital, we must have access to technology, to markets. Mobility should be part of the conversation as well.
And then finally, there is this issue, which is that if you have aspirations, what we will be will depend on what we are and what we were. So there must be a sense of history. In a sense, it is revisiting the past, redoing the present, and preparing for the future.
On how being a majority government affects the way the world sees us
We have seen the majority period and we have seen the coalition period and I think nobody wishes for a coalition in this country ever again. So I would say, yes, definitely the majority government makes a difference. But I don’t think it’s as simple as that. I really think you need a kind of a vision, a leadership, which will motivate the country, which will get people to do more, get out of their comfort zone. People would be willing to take risks, experiment with things.
On challenging conventional wisdom on Indian foreign policy
What I found working in the foreign ministry at that time, there was a conventional belief in the foreign policy system. But when we actually looked at public behaviour, it was very different. At that time, I used to deal with the US.
What we found even during the nuclear deal was that you had a very strong ideological kind of prism… So if one actually looked at the real indices, where is your trade growing? Where is your technology coming from? Where is the mobility migration happening? Where are people going for education? Where are people going for tourism? What kind of movies do you watch? The whole direction went one way. The foreign policy was going in a very different way. So my point in that first book was sometimes to listen to the street, get out of your own narrow circle and ask real people of the real economy, ‘so what do you think about the world? Where do you think our chances are? Where is the opportunity there?’
On the need for debate
In a democracy, the government should be questioned. There should be debates, there are debates around in this country. This country would not be this country if it didn’t have debates. So, I don’t have an issue with that. What I have an issue with is that if you question something, it’s (attributed) a political agenda.
On the role of the private sector
When I was talking about the key relationships, the US relationship, and spoke about the ideological prism, I think it was that very same prism which actually led to Licence Raj, which led to the constraints on business in this country and which stifled innovation. If you want innovation, you are looking today at a kind of leapfrog really, because this country cannot grow like others grew before us. We have today to latch on to those big opportunities today. So semiconductor, renewable, green tech, clean tech, drone space.
On whether we are open to a conversation with Pakistan
We never closed our doors to talking with Pakistan. (But the) question is, what is it you talk about? If they have that many terrorist camps dedicated to training people who come over with the sole intention of making your life difficult, surely that should be the central part of the conversation… I am not going to duck the issue of terrorism for the sake of talking to them.
On his next book
I would like to actually kind of create a primer plus on Indian strategic traditions. What has been our history, how do we think about it, what have been the historical situations. So I’ve used the epics as a sort of lens. But I would like to make a much more serious effort and present it to the world because I see with other cultures and civilisations that, you know, the westerners would put forward something which they would say over the last 2,000 years, this is how from the Greeks onwards, this is how we have evolved or, you know, the Chinese may do that. I feel, and I know it is there. It’s there in bits and pieces in people’s minds, etc.
On how he maintains many relationships
You know, it might surprise you, but I actually do send WhatsApp forwards, jokes. But look, it’s a mix. Today the nature of diplomacy itself is changing. More people directly reach out to each other. You don’t go through cumbersome protocol process systems. It’s like any profession, any sort of gathering. You make friends, you hang out together, you eat together, you spend time together. So over a period of time there’s like a kind of a fraternity.
looking today at a kind of leapfrog really, because this country cannot grow like others grew before us. We have today to latch on to those big opportunities today. So semiconductor, renewable, green tech, clean tech, drone space.
On whether we are open to a conversation with Pakistan
We never closed our doors to talking with Pakistan. (But the) question is, what is it you talk about? If they have that many terrorist camps dedicated to training people who come over with the sole intention of making your life difficult, surely that should be the central part of the conversation… I am not going to duck the issue of terrorism for the sake of talking to them.
On his next book
I would like to actually kind of create a primer plus on Indian strategic traditions. What has been our history, how do we think about it, what have been the historical situations. So I’ve used the epics as a sort of lens. But I would like to make a much more serious effort and present it to the world because I see with other cultures and civilisations that, you know, the westerners would put forward something which they would say over the last 2,000 years, this is how from the Greeks onwards, this is how we have evolved or, you know, the Chinese may do that. I feel, and I know it is there. It’s there in bits and pieces in people’s minds, etc.
On how he maintains many relationships
You know, it might surprise you, but I actually do send WhatsApp forwards, jokes. But look, it’s a mix. Today the nature of diplomacy itself is changing. More people directly reach out to each other. You don’t go through cumbersome protocol process systems. It’s like any profession, any sort of gathering. You make friends, you hang out together, you eat together, you spend time together. So over a period of time there’s like a kind of a fraternity.
• India or Bharat, which would you prefer on your next official visit?
Bharat.
• Kabul, Ukraine, Vande Bharat, Sudan, which was the more stressful evacuation?
Each had its own moments of anxiety. In Kabul, getting people to the airport was a big challenge. In Sudan, collecting them because they were spread out everywhere was the big challenge. In Ukraine, moving them from east of Ukraine to the west of Ukraine — I’d say all of them were equally stressful.
• The one lesson American diplomats can learn from Indian diplomats.
Speak better English?
• The one lesson Chinese diplomats can learn from Indian diplomats.
Be nice to Indians.
• The one lesson Indian foreign policy can learn from American foreign policy.
I still think in many ways how to be a global power is something which is enormously complicated.
• If you living in a time where all characters of the Mahabharata and Ramayana are walking the earth and you have the magical ability to request both Hanuman and Sri Krishna — one who performs his duties undaunted by any obstacles, and the other a master strategist and source of wisdom at difficult moments. Who would you send to which country to fix our relationship?
I’d give them a global contract. I’d say, look, you are capable of fixing everything. Each one has a different sort of strength.
• So between Pakistan and China, who’d you send to which country?
I’d probably send Hanuman to Pakistan and Sri Krishna to China.
• Which abbreviation do you think has the most potential and which is the most challenging to get off the ground? I2U2 (India, Israel, UAE, USA); IMEC (Indo-Middle East Europe Economic Corridor); SAGAR (Security and Growth for All in Region); IPOI (Indo-Pacific Oceans Initiative); and Quad.
I like SAGAR because it actually ended up as a word. In the case of I2U2, it started as a joke. When we met for the first time, the issue came up as to what should we call ourselves. I joked saying, ‘I 2U2’. And I was very surprised it acquired a sort of real life. I like Quad for this reason — it makes it very clear that it stays at four.
• The one thing that needs to happen for Russia-Ukraine war to end?
Eventually, somewhere the parties need to come to the conclusion that they want to end the war.
• Space, semiconductors, AI, textiles, manufacturing, agriculture, human resources — which will be the biggest leverage for India?
In a 10-year timeframe, space and semiconductors.
• One thing that’s changed in the government dealing with Pakistan and one thing that has stayed the same.
What has changed is the clarity about dealing with, responding to terrorism. What has remained the same is the reality of the fact that they are a neighbour.